Saturday, October 16, 2010

Finding what you know must be there ...

The Allegheny Church, listed not as a Second Adventist Congregation but as a
One Faith Congregation.
Do you have any idea how much this alters the traditional view?
We looked long and hard for this.


jerome said...

The Advent Christian Church's journal, The World's Crisis puts George Stetson preaching at Quincy Hall in the early 1870s. So what date is this quote about Clowes preaching there? One assumes that, not actually being a church, all manner of different groups could rent a time slot there.

B. W. Schulz said...

I did leave that out. I am sorry.

This is from Restitution, November 5, 1874.

Sherlock(JW1983) said...

The “dirty, dingy hall” may have been at Quincy Hall, 127 Lacock St.(where G.W. Stetson later held meetings), about two blocks from the Russells’ haberdashery, on the NE corner of Federal and Robinson Streets.

The Bible Student Movement
in the Days of C.T. Russell
Third Edition, 1999 Jan.

Sherlock(JW1983) said...

I have the 1872 plat map of the area, even when I zoom in on the map it is difficult to read the addresses. Lacock Street is located one block north of Russell’s store on Federal. So, if one makes a left from Federal onto Lacock Street, and walks one block west the hall may have been located on the right (north side of the street). At the northeast corner of Lacock Street and Balkam Street. It’s the best I can do with these old maps (I could be wrong). I also have photos of the area, I will see what I can come up with.

Anonymous said...

This is a fantastic find!

But you mean they weren't "Advent Christian" rather than they weren't "Second Adventist," right? As I am sure you know, the Age to Comers, at least in New York and Pennsylvania, were a branch of Second Adventists, even though they refused to take on a denominational name.

Anonymous said...

Not clear how this changes the traditional view. Do not see One Faith mentioned.
The WC,ACT, repeatedly lists an Advent Christian church in Pittsburgh/Allegheny, using those words.
Perhaps the church split, or different Adventist groups met concurrently, or they met together. Hard to tell what was going on there.

B. W. Schulz said...

One Faith (aka Abrahamic Faith, sometimes Church of God) belief predates Millerism. They did look for Christ's immediate return and were commonly considered Second Adventists.

They did not see themselves as Second Adventists or as Adventists of any sort.

Restitution is, we believe, an unexplored resource. We found two articles that mention Barbour. There are a number of things by Storrs. Stetson contributed. There is much by the "brother Meyers" Russell mentions in ZWT.

Think of it this way: One Faith people and Second Adventists were kicked by the same mule, but were not the same people.

Being commonly called an Adventist doesn't make the title appropriate.

More explanations later. We have thousand of pages of poorly scanned material to read. Some of it we can just scan. Some of it requires a careful reading.

Sherlock(JW1983) said...

I think the same can be said of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Bible students. Two distinct groups with the same heritage. When I would post on Bible student boards I would refer to them as my "Cousins" not Brother's. Each group views the other as the black sheep. It can be difficult because many of the current Bible students are simply ex-JW's. Both groups hold to many of the same basic truths which separates us from christendom, however we are so far apart on other matters that we could never reconcile. It's a shame that most Jehovah's Witnesses don't know anything about the early years of the Watch Tower Society, on the other hand most Bible students are stuck in these early years. I know for a fact that some Bible students have defended Jehovah's Witnesses from the false stories of other Bible students. And over the years I have tried to do the same for them. Do I view them as evil? Of course not I never blaim the group because of a few nut jobs. Some are Russellites to the core, others are very liberal. I see the same mentality within my own congregation, some brothers can think out side of the box, others only know what is in the most recent Watchtower.

B. W. Schulz said...

Not a bad observation, Sherlock. Age to Come belief in the USA exctends back to the colonial era. It tended toward a liberal view of salvation, sometimes fading over into Universalism. With the advent of Millerism, there was a constant suffling of adherents.

What matters is the person's self identity at the time they write. I think we took down the post that discussed Covert in detail. He started life as an age to come believer and a reader of Restitution. He threw that all over and joined the Church of God (winebrennerites), staying with them until his old age. Then he went back to Adventism as a member of the Seventh-day sect.

What matters is how he saw himself at any particular time.

Another confusing aspect of this is the generalized use of "Church of God," "Abrahamic Faith" and "age to come" by a multitude of sects with wildly differing views.

There is a Church of God General Conference. There is a Churches of God General Conference. They're not much alike. They do not share many doctrines. There have been three "abrahamic faith" churches with similar but differing backgrounds.

We can't pain them all with the same colours. Similarity does not mean identity.

Anonymous said...

According to David Tallmadge Arthur, who did much research on this topic in his dissertation, "Come Out of Babylon," The Church of God was formed from two groups: the Age to Come people in Illinois and areas west, and the Age to Come people in areas east. They had separate origins. The Age to Come people in Illinois were not connected with the Adventists, having neither their origins with them, nor fraternity with them. On the other hand, the Age to Come people in the eastern areas of the US did have their origins in the Adventist movement and initially had fraternity with them, finally separating in the late 1850's and having increased association with the western Age to Come people.