On March 14, 1938, The Tampa Bay Times (Florida) carried the obituary of Maria Frances (Ackley) Russell, the wife of CTR, who had outlived him by over 20 years. Several other Florida newspapers carried the same story. The surviving relatives included some Packards (descendants of her sister Emma), the Raynors (descendants of her sister Laura) and the Ackleys (descendants of her brother Lemuel). There were no living descendants of her other sister, Selena Barto. Maria was the final survivor of her generation of Ackleys.
The obituary specifically claimed that Maria had been co-author of the
early editions of Millennial Dawn
with her husband Charles T (Deacon?) Russell. This article will examine that
claim. But first we need to cover quite a bit of background.
Maria had married CTR (Charles Taze Russell) back in March 1879. Well
over a year later, her younger sister, Emma, married CTR’s widowed father,
Joseph Lytle Russell. Maria was to assist her husband in his religious work,
although the extent and nature of that help was to be disputed later on.
Writing in 1906, after a lengthy separation had been put on a legal
footing, CTR described his marriage as he saw it. In Zion’s Watch Tower (ZWT)
for July 15, 1906, he wrote under the heading: THIRTEEN BLISSFUL YEARS:
“The starting of the paper (ZWT) was delayed until July, 1879, and this
left me for several months continuously at Allegheny, where, in addition to the
usual meetings, I conducted several series of meetings in the interest of the
public in this vicinity.
Considerable numbers were
brought in contact with the Truth at this time. Amongst others was a Maria
Frances Ackley, who became my wife within three months of her first attendance
at these meetings, which was the beginning of our acquaintance. The Truth
seemingly appealed to her heart, and she assured me it was what she had been
seeking for many years --the solution of perplexities of long standing. For
thirteen years she was a
most devoted and loyal wife in every sense of the word.”
This would
take us through to the first half of the 1890s. During this time, CTR gave Maria a
number of roles. He made her a director and secretary-treasurer of the
incorporated Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society in 1884. She wrote articles for ZWT. She managed
correspondence for the paper until Rose Ball was trained to take over. And in
1894 he sent her out as a speaker to represent him in concerns discussed in A Conspiracy Exposed (1894). This
speaking tour was reported to be highly successful. When they were in harmony
CTR rightly called her (as above) “a most devoted and loyal wife in every sense
of the word.”
Maria could be a feisty character by all accounts, used to handling
responsibility from her long years of keeping order in the classroom. In her
school career in the 1870s there had been at least one issue. The Pittsburgh Daily Post for 19 January
1878 relates how she was accused of assaulting a pupil. When CTR’s sister Margaretta
and her four children were given shelter by CTR in 1887-1888 there was friction
between the two women (See Russell vs Russell 1906 page 229 – all references hereafter
taken from the typed transcript rather than the Paper Book of Appellant for
1906 and then the typed transcript for 1907). When Rose Ball became a member of
the Russell household there was a suggestion that Maria sometimes worked Rose
rather hard and made her cry (1906 – page 134).
The implications may be unfair, but Maria comes over as strong-willed,
and as the perceived roles of women and wives evolved in society in general,
one can start to understand the issues that would affect the Russells’ marriage
in the 1890s.
As CTR saw it, in the 1890s Maria started to change. Influenced by two
of her sisters Emma and Laura, she increasingly espoused newer views on women’s
rights.
The issue of women’s rights was featured prominently in a series of
articles in the July 1893 double issue of Zion’s
Watch Tower. The title of the series was ‘Man and Woman in God’s Order.’
There is no author given, but it is hard to imagine that Maria did not
have some hand in this series. It started by stating that Paul’s words had
often been misunderstood and “fostered a spirit of doubt as to his divine
inspiration, and thus proved a stepping stone to Infidelity. Such doubts having
once gotten control of the mind are apt to lead to the extreme of so-called
Woman’s Rights – forcing some to an extreme on that side of the question as
others have gone to an extreme on the opposite side: making women mere slaves,
drudges or entertainers for men – or erroneously supposing that the apostle so
taught.”
The series endeavored to steer a balanced course between the two
extremes in society.
In this era, the legal system along with cultural norms of the day had long
disadvantaged women, but the times they were a’changing. Maria’s stance on women’s rights hardened and
problems arose as a result. In 1906, at the time she was embroiled in legal
action against CTR, she crystallized her views in a small book The Twain One (based on the “twain
becoming one flesh” in the KJV rendering of Mark 10 v.8).
The Twain One quoted
liberally from John Stewart Mills’ The
Subjection of Women. For an assumed Christian readership it had a strong
message – wives were in subjection to their husbands but only if they judged
them “fit.” The Bible’s counsel about women not being teachers and remaining
silent in the congregation did not apply to the church in general. And a favorite
role model in the book for Maria was Sarah who had no compunction about telling
Abraham what she thought. When Maria lived out this conviction in practice, as
CTR saw it, there were problems. For example, he related how on one occasion in
the 1890s she took over his study and prevented him from working for a whole
morning while insisting that she read to him then and there three articles
she’d just written on Solomon (1906 – page 162). Then after the midday meal she
continued the dialog by following him into another office in Bible House where
they now lived. Maria’s attorney did not
challenge this description. In the 1880s they
lived in a large house on Clifton Avenue, but according to a history marker
near the site in Pittsburgh they moved into Bible House in 1894. In Clifton
Avenue there was room to breathe and for issues to dissipate, but in the
confined living quarters of Bible House such a scenario was far less
manageable.
As CTR told it, problems really came to the fore when as editor he made
slight changes to her ZWT articles. He insisted he never changed the sense, but
Maria disagreed. When she wrote material that he flatly disagreed with then he
refused to publish it – as sole editor that was his prerogative. This
was indicated in an exchange between Maria’s counsel and CTR in the 1906 hearing
(page 161).
Q. About the only trouble you had with your wife
over the editorship of this paper was as stated by your wife, that she wanted
the articles to go out as she had written them, and you wanted them changed to
meet your views?
A. No, sir; that wouldn’t be a proper statement.
The proper statement would be this, that I never conceded that she had an
editorship in the paper. I was the editor of the paper all the time. I never
conceded anything else. But as long as she was in harmony with me I would read
over – if she wrote an article I would read it, and if I found it satisfactory,
or nearly so, I might make a change of a word or two, but it would not be my
intention to make the article read the opposite of what it was written.
The situation was never resolved and just got worse. He refused to
accept her articles for the last six months they were together, and finally in November
1897 Maria left him and Bible House
and never went back.
She first went to Chicago to visit her brother, Lemuel, a lawyer who could
no doubt provide legal advice. On returning to Pittsburgh she went to live with
her sister Emma at 80 Cedar Avenue, in the house Emma inherited after her
husband Joseph Lytle Russell died. When tenants moved out of the adjoining
house in the duplex, Maria moved in next door to number 79. CTR paid the taxes on
this property and supplied some furniture. He also visited her a few times but
this soon ceased. They could just have continued quietly living at separate
addresses. It was a large house with ten rooms and she let out rooms to
boarders – one account suggests she had six living there at the time problems
kicked off.
The way events played out showed there were disagreements about money between the
Russells (father and son) and the Ackley sisters. Maria and Emma had married
into the Russell family and both had financial concerns. Emma was well provided
for by her elderly husband Joseph Lytle Russell, but when he made a new will towards
the end of his life, which included additional bequests to his surviving
children there were difficulties. An attempt was made to claim that he was not
of sound mind. In October 1897 the three witnesses to his last will and
testament had to sign that Joseph was of “sound mind and memory” before he died
in the December.
In the case of Maria, she had gone from single schoolteacher on a modest
salary to wife of a prosperous merchant. They lived well. We have already indicated
that their house on Clifton Avenue was large enough to accommodate CTR’s sister
and her four children in 1887-1888. Later Charles and Rose Ball came to stay. The
Russells had staff, including a gardener and a live-in maid, Emily (1906 – page
178). But as more resources were put into the ministry work of Zion’s Watch
Tower Society, Charles and Maria moved into quarters in Bible House in 1894. As
already noted, this would have required considerable adjustment and it was around
this time that troubles in the marriage really came to the surface.
CTR’s assets were eventually donated to the Watch Tower Society, and as
he stressed, this was something both he and Maria had agreed on originally. In
exchange he received a small allowance, board, lodging and expenses, along with
voting shares as president of the Society. This allowed him to both continue
and defend his life’s work. For an estranged wife who no longer believed as he
did, this was not going to end well. She would want a piece of the pie, and he
would want to protect his religious work. He viewed some of Maria’s financial claims
as a direct attack on what he held dear.
In the 1900s it all got worse and spilled out into public view. In 1903
Maria put her financial concerns into print and circulated them. She now claimed
in writing that she had been
co-writer with CTR of the first few books in the Millennial Dawn series. She was owed.
An article in Zion’s Watch Tower
lit the fuse. It was in the 1 November 1902 issue and entitled “Insanity of the
Doukhobors.” It discussed the Russian immigrants now in America and Canada and
the issues of their assimilation. The key message was “conscience is a
dangerous thing unless instructed by God’s Word and thus guided by the spirit
of a sound mind.” A mix of targets followed the Doukhobors including militant
vegetarians and Seventh Day Adventists. But then CTR wrote:
“As an illustration of a misguided conscience and its baneful effect in social affairs we mention the case of an editor's wife. She at one time took pleasure in assisting him in his work. By and by a deluded and misguided conscience told her that God wished her to be editor in chief and publish what she pleased. When the editor demurred that he dare not abandon his stewardship, the deluded conscience told its owner that she should no longer co-operate, but more, that she should break her marriage covenant in deserting her husband and home, and that she should say all manner of evil against him falsely, until such time as he would yield to her the liberties of the journal – which her conscience told her was God's will.
The
moral of all such lessons is, "Be not wise above what is written."
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be
ashamed,--rightly dividing the Word of truth."
CTR would later testify that this could apply to a dozen men he knew,
but admitted he’d had Maria in mind. He’d mentioned no names but Maria took it very
personally. She produced a 16 page booklet in response entitled Readers of Zion’s Watch Tower and Millennial
Dawn: Attention! in which she certainly named HIM. She sent it to everyone she could think of.
In it, she stated that she was “not
receiving a dollar…from the literary work so largely hers.”
(bold print mine).
In this booklet, Maria acknowledged that CTR’s message contained truth.
Since she was claiming to be co-author of his books she could hardly do
otherwise, but “the fact that some hold the truth in unrighteousness does not
invalidate the truth now any more than of old. Though the scribes and pharisees
whom Jesus described a whited sepulchres, full of all manner of uncleanness,
held and taught the divine law, that law remains as pure today as if they had
never touched it. And so it is of all truth that is God’s truth.”
It was hardly conciliatory.
This very personal attack was funded by Maria running a lodging house in
the Cedar Avenue property. It prompted immediate action. CTR took the Cedar
Avenue house back and put his sister, Margaretta, in charge of it. Maria could
have stayed there on a proper legal basis; she was offered her own room and
full board, but perhaps understandably she simply chose to move back next door
with her sister, Emma. As noted above, Maria and Margaretta had lived under the
same roof in earlier years but the two women just hadn’t got along. The change
of control of the property was messy and reported on a daily basis by the
Pittsburgh newspapers of the day. At one point one of Maria’s lodgers declared
his wish to spend the rest of his life with her, and this all must have been
the final nail in the coffin of any prospects of reconciliation between the
parties.
Maria then went to law to seek a legal separation and lawfully
establlshed support. The case came for trial in 1906, and there was a subsequent
hearing in 1907 to try and increase the alimony.
It might be useful at this point to establish just exactly what Maria
was after. It was not to end the marriage. A complete divorce would not have
provided her with material support, and would probably have gone against her
religious convictions. Maria likely believed the only scriptural grounds for divorce
was adultery (Matthew 5 v.31) and she would specifically stress that this was
not charged (1906 – page 10).
What she went for and eventually obtained was officially called a
mensa et thora.
For the
details we have to go to the
Villanova Law Revew Volume 15, issue
1 (1969) article 8, entitled Grounds and Defenses to Divorce in Pennsylvania
and written by Robert A. Ebenstein.
A mensa et thora means divorce from bed and board, and is normally
abbreviated as a.m.t. This is in contrast to what would be understood as a
complete dissolution of a marriage called a vinculo matrimonii (abbreviated
to a.v.m.). Ebenstein wanted the law changed to remove a.m.t. from the statute
books. He wrote on the limitations and problems with it. “Divorce a.m.t. is only
available to the wife; and unlike the situation in divorce a.v.t. the libellant
need not be an innocent and injured spouse. Also, the parties to divorce a.m.t.
cannot remarry since they have been granted what is in effect a legal
separation…The only reasons for choosing a legal separation would appear to be
vindictiveness, a desire for alimony, and to encourage a later reconciliation.”
It was also noted that some with religious objections to divorce might choose
this route.
This type of separation Maria went for
could only be sought by the wife, not the husband; crucially she did not have
to prove her own absense of fault, and if granted, neither party was free to
re-marry. As acknowledged by Maria above, the scriptural grounds for a full
divorce did not apply, so that just left the three possible reasons for the
action, vindictiveness, alimony or potential reconcilliation. The way things
went down indicates alimony as the main motivating factor.
However, legally the terms of a mensa
et thora are quite clear. Neither party could remarry. In that sense, they
were still married to each other, and this is how Maria was presented to the
world up to and including her own obituary. Ebenstein presents such a case as
“in effect, a legal separation.”
So Maria’s objectives were financial.
There may have been a secondary concern, the desire to publish her own books,
but that was hampered by monetary concerns. This exchange (1907 – page 138)
explains:
Q. Have you written for publication anything since
you and Mr Russell separated?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it?
A. I have written one book, and I have others on
the way, but I have not the means to publish it.
Did Maria want to establish herself as an independent theological voice?
Perhaps. But as discussed in Zion’s Watch
Tower for 15 July 1906 (reproducing some of her correspondence) she’d
previously suggested that CTR was the “faithful slave” of Matthew 24 v.45. However, since the “twain (were) one” she too
would be part of that “slave” – that is, until CTR disagreed with her. Then she
revised her opinion and CTR became “the evil slave.” One wonders,
theologically, where that left her.
Nonetheless, looking at her statements and actions, her chief motivation
still seems to be pecuniary, both to publish her own materials as well as live
in reasonable comfort. The Dawn books
were selling in the millions. She was entitled. This was shown by the wording
of the complaint she put in writing in 1903. Quoting again, she was “not receiving a
dollar…from the literary work so largely hers.”
The 1907 hearing was therefore all about money. What resources did CTR
have personally as opposed to what was now donated to the Watch Tower Society
and untouchable? What level of alimony could she claim? To maximise her petition,
Maria tried to establish that first - CTR still had plenty of personal assets,
and second - that she had been an integral
contributor to his financial success
– obviously not as a successful merchant, but as a writer. She said they had
worked together on the Millennial Dawn
series and her imput was at least equal to his and in some cases a lot greater.
He said the ideas and theology was his alone, that “she had no knowledge of the
subject, because it was new to her” (a quote we will return to later). But he
recognized that she gave him valuable assistance.
We can note his own acknowledgement of this in the original preface of The Plan of the Ages, which stayed in place for about the first ten years of publication from 1886.
So Maria rendered valuable assistance which was readily acknowledged. He
called her “his help-meet – to whom (he was) indebted for valuable assistance
rendered in this connection.” However, the foreward – never disputed at the
time - plainly describes one author, not two. Maria never disputed that at the
time.
As for the subject being “new” to her, we must remember that when they
married after knowing each other for less than three months, Maria had come
from a Methodist Episcopal background. CTR, however, had spent the previous ten
years with his own Bible study group, and had been greatly influenced by the
Age to Come and Advent Christian movements, including individuals like Jonas
Wendell, George Stetson, George Storrs and Nelson Barbour. Maria never knew any
of these men. Their influence in various ways fuelled the message in the
fledgling Zion’s Watch Tower, as well
as material like Object and Manner of Our
Lord’s Return which pre-dated Maria, as did articles in magazines like
Storrs’ Bible Examiner and Barbour’s Herald of the Morning. Maria’s contributions
tended to be devotional rather than doctrinal. While CTR’s theology would
continue to evolve in some of the details, he would seem justified in claiming
authorship of the main IDEAS promoted in Millennial Dawn.
To maximise her claim for alimony, Maria was to make four basic claims
in court which at worst were patently false, or at the very least, showed a
faulty memory of events.
First: she claimed that the idea for Zion’s
Watch Tower had been a joint venture between husband and wife from the very
beginning, and even before they were married. Second: that generally only she
and Charles had written for the paper. Third: that her name had been on the
title page of the volumes originally. Then of course fourth: the claim that she
had personally written at least half, and in some cases more, of the first few
volumes of Millennial Dawn.
In reality, on the first point, CTR had announced the proposed advent of
his paper in Barbour’s Herald
magazine in February 1879. Allowing for the time it would take to go from
composition to print this could well have been written before CTR ever met
Maria in the latter half of December 1878.
But it is true that they were in unison once the need for a new paper
became apparent and a proposed companion paper soon became a rival.
But then, the second point, describing the new title, Maria made the
claim (1907 – page 119) that it was normally just she and CTR who wrote for the
paper. Her actual words:
“Mr Russell and
I were the only ones that ever wrote for it, except for a few who wrote
occasionally…There were very few other articles except his and mine that were
ever admitted to the paper.”
Just one look at the early ZWTs
shows this to be completely untrue. The masthead from the very first issue had
CTR as the sole editor and listed the main regular contributors.
This continued for some time, and Maria’s
name is no-where to be seen. The regular contributors often signed off their
articles with their initials, but the first appearance of any reference to
“Sister Russell” or “Mrs C T Russell” is not until the January-February 1882
issue, although she may have provided anonymous copy before then. But so much
for: “Mr Russell and I were the ony ones that ever wrote for it.”
Continuing to over-egg the pudding (as the British might put it), the
third claim Maria made was that her name had been on the title page of the Millennial Dawn volumes, the ones she maintained
she had co-written. The exchange with her counsel (1907 – page 121) went as
follows:
Q. Did your name appear upon the title page of
either of these publications?
A. Of all of them, unless they have been taken
off in recent years. I have not seen the recent editions.
This can be easily checked and her name no-where appears on any title
page of any edition of Millennial Dawn.
Come to that, neither did CTR’s name appear on any title page, but ony in the
foreward reproduced above, which gave credit to Maria’s assistance.
Then fourth, there was the main claim that she had written over half of
the first few volumes of Millennial Dawn.
So as well as general alimony, maybe royalties could be added to the payoff.
As one would expect there was quite a different viewpoint between Maria
and Charles on this. In the first hearing of 1906, Maria had suggested her
major role, but it was in the 1907 hearing that both parties expressed how they saw matters. Maria first (page
120-121):
Q. Who wrote the Millennial Dawn?
A. Well, the books were written by myself and Mr
Russell, all that Mr Russell wrote was submitted to me for examination; I laid
the plans for each of these volumes, and I can testify that at least one-half
of the work, and I think more, is mine.
CTR was quite adamant that the situation had been different (1907 – page
243):
Q. Did she write any of the volumes?
A. None of the volumes.
Q. Did she write any of the chapters?
A. She labored in connection with myself on some
of the chapters, among other things, but she had no knowledge of the subject,
because it was new to her….She co-labored in the arrangement, she read the
proof and examined my manuscript, perhaps.
When asked why he had not corrected Maria’s similar claims in the 1906
hearing he replied that he had not been asked anything about it.
It should be noted that after Maria left,
CTR continued writing: there were to be two more thick volumes of Millennial Dawn retitled as Studies in the Scriptures, a Photodrama of Creation scenario, nearly
twenty more years’ worth of articles for Watch
Tower and Bible Students
Monthly, and innumerable newspaper sermons. He was highly prolific,
without any input from Maria at all.
There is just one line of argument left to perhaps try and establish the
reality. What might an analysis of writing
styles show as to authorship? Interestingly, it was CTR himself who suggested readers
could check this out for themselves. Continuing in the above cross-examination
he said (1907 – page 244):
“If anyone will
compare Mrs Russell’s new book which she published a few years ago with the Dawn, they will see a very different
style in every sense of the word.”
CTR had bought a copy of Maria’s book The Twain One, and a 1906 review in the Pittsburgh Leader by “a minister” was based on an interview he had
given about it.
But, dismissing CTR’s suggestion, at least one critic has tried to make
the comparison in Maria’s favor. Back in the early 1970s a detractor of CTR
published his own analysis of the first four volumes. The conclusion reached
was that the standard of writing in volume four showed a considerable drop in
quality when compared with the first three. The writer came to the ‘obvious’ conclusion
– without help from Maria, CTR really struggled with volume 4.
There is one problem with this, and it is a BIG ONE.
In the hearing Maria claimed that while she wrote over half of volumes
1-3 she actually wrote THE WHOLE of volume 4 by herself (apart from just one
chapter). From 1907 – page 121:
“Of the fourth
volume I wrote the entire volume except one chapter, but when seven chapters of
that had gone to the printer, Mr Russell took offense and never wrote the
balance of it; he finished it himself, so that is the way the fourth volume
ended.”
So much for analysis.
In fairness, CTR acknowledged this in part. Volume 4 was made up from
many quotations and Maria had kept the cuttings files. But he, CTR, had made
the final decision as to what was used. The numerous quotations from different
sources would also give an uneven feel to this volume, no matter who compiled
it. In commenting on Maria’s words (1907 – page 213-214) he responded:
“I heard Mrs
Russell’s testimony and noted in particular her reference to the fourth volume
of the Millennial Dawn, her remark that a considerable portion of it, probably
one-half, was her work…I answer that Mrs Russell did do considerable of the
forepart of the fourth volume, because this is nearly all of it, the collection
of clippings which we had been collecting for some years, and the large part of
it, the report of the congress of religions held in Chicago, at the World Fair.
I have no desire to belittle in any manner the assistance rendered me by my
wife, but could not agree with her statement. I would have preferred to have
said nothing on the subject but since it seems necessary to answer her, I would
say that much of her work is of a kind that is done in nearly any office, proof
reading, and the work of an amanuensis…At the time of Mrs Russell’s association
with me, she was very willing indeed, and in very full sympathy with me,
especially during the time of the first three volumes, and I have no doubt she
would have been glad to have done a great deal more than she did do.”
We note that CTR gave Maria a certain amount of credit in this comment, while
again explaining how he understood their previous working relationship. And in
the 1906 hearing (page 112) he had been asked about her abilities:
Q. Mrs Russell, I believe, is a very bright,
intellectual woman, is she not?
A. Yes, sir.
So what are we to take from all of the above? Maria assisted in the preparation
of the first few volumes of Millennial
Dawn; that is not in dispute. As to how
much she assisted, both she and CTR saw it differently. But the volumes were
always presented as his work not a
joint work, although she was given fulsome credit for the help she gave in the
original foreward. When they were in harmony she never disputed how matters
were presented. His key argument – which is still valid – was that he was
responsible for the content, because, as quoted above: “she had no knowledge of
the subject, because it was new to her.”
After the hearings and the awarding of alimony, Maria could have just quietly got on with her life, but that was not to be. Sadly she continued to attack her husband on every possible occasion she could. In the Russell vs. Brooklyn Eagle (Miracle Wheat) court case of 1913 she appeared for the Eagle, although her testimony was so inconsequential it can only have been designed to cause her husband embarrassment. In the Ross libel case which shortly followed it, she is described as contacting the Ross camp and offering to travel to Canada to volunteer her services. (See The Victoria Daily Times for 23 January 1013). When she was interviewed in the Brooklyn Eagle for 6 May 1914 about a local Bible Student convention she was asked about rumors of possible reconciliation. Her response was unequivocal: “To seek…reconciliation and live with him was out of the question.” And even though she attended CTR’s funeral as his wife, the Brooklyn Eagle newspaper showed she still hoped to get more from his estate. The Eagle for 29 November 29 1916, carried the byline:
Note that she is clearly
“the wife” who inherits a $200 bank account, but who also engages a lawyer to
protect what she considers “her interests.” The text simply defines these as
her “property rights.”
In due course in 1907, Maria was awarded her alimony – which settled on
$100 a month. But she never did get any “royalties.” It could be argued that as
sales of volumes often made a loss in endevours to spread the message, and as all
proceeds went back into the work of the Watch Tower Society, that CTR never
gained personal royalties either.
Maria’s subsequent history is detailed in the blog article Maria – The Later Years.
At the end she owned a house in beautiful surroundings in Florida, and
her last will and testament left substantial bequests to family members and
friends. When the house last came on the market in the early 2020s it was
valued at over one million dollars.
Ultimately, Maria didn’t do too badly.
Note: This article is followed by two articles a little further down this blog. They are: The Twain One (Mrs Russell's Spicy Book) and Maria Russell - The Later Years. One is tempted to combine them with a title from The Sound of Music:
How do you solve a problem like Maria...?
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